God's Got It

10. The Real Meaning of Sin (And Why It Changes Everything)

• Molly Rasanen & Jenn Maroney

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In this episode of God’s Got It, Molly and Jenn dive into a powerful conversation about sin, repentance, and what it truly means to return to God.

For many people, the word sin has been tied to shame, guilt, and condemnation. But what if repentance isn’t about humiliation or proving your worth to God?

What if it’s simply about turning back toward Him?

Together, Molly and Jenn explore a deeper understanding of repentance through the lens of relationship rather than religion. They unpack the difference between condemnation and conviction, why shame is never the voice of God, and how returning to Him is always available to us.

This conversation reframes sin not as proof that you are broken or disqualified, but as a reminder that we live in a world where separation from God exists — and that repentance is the pathway back into connection, restoration, and freedom.

They also discuss:

• Why the traditional messaging around sin pushes many people away from faith
• How repentance is about changing your mind and returning to God
• The difference between conviction (from God) and condemnation (not from God)
• Why shame keeps us stuck — and how grace sets us free
• The role of spiritual warfare in keeping people trapped in guilt
• How godly friendships help redirect us back toward truth
• Modern forms of sin we often overlook (gossip, pride, idolizing money or control)
• Why Jesus confronted religious legalism — and what that means for believers today
• How the Kingdom of Heaven is not just a future promise, but something we can experience here and now

Because the truth is:

God isn’t condemning you.
He’s inviting you back into realized relationship.

And when we truly receive that grace, it changes everything.

If this episode resonated with you, we’d love to hear from you.

Send us a DM or share the episode with someone who might need this reminder today!

And remember: God’s got it.

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Let's Connect! 

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to God's Got It, the podcast for women coming home to God. I'm Jen, and I'm Molly, and we're just two girls walking with God doing our best to create the process. Here we'll be talking all things faith, healing, and what it looks like to build a life in Christ as we navigate the messy middle of being human.

SPEAKER_06

This is a space for the raw and unfiltered conversation. It's about seasons that test your trust, moments that stretch your faith, and stories that remind you no matter what's unfolding, God's got it. Hi guys, welcome back. God's got it. I was like, is this a solo episode?

SPEAKER_05

Am I here just hanging out? Is this thing on? I was waiting to be I don't know. I was waiting to be prompted with something more.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05

Molly, would you like to join the podcast today? I suppose so. I'm here. I'm present.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, great. Molly.

SPEAKER_07

Present.

SPEAKER_06

Great. Well, welcome. Welcome also you, as well as our listeners, to the podcast today. How are you feeling? How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_04

I'm feeling good. I'm feeling grateful. I'm feeling in so much flow and abundance, and not abundance necessarily in the way that we maybe sometimes seek it of kind of having all these external material things happening, but abundance of living in the goodness of God.

SPEAKER_06

Ooh. That feels really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I'm in one of those moments in life where I'm like, okay, yeah, this is why I want everybody to know this. I want everybody to know God. I want everybody to get it so that everybody can experience this. Actually, that's making me think. Um, I'm not gonna read it completely out loud, but I had a message from a listener yesterday, and she was having an encounter, like a hundred percent an encounter that she's like, I get it. I've just like I've been on my knees in gratitude, just crying over the goodness of God. And there's no way that anything could have ever happened any differently. And I just get it now, and I'm so filled, and it's changing everything in my life. And thank you for so much for speaking out on these things before I fully understood what it was, because now it's like I can connect the dots from the words and the excitement and the energy of what you guys talk about all the time. And I was like, wow, like, yep, that's why we're doing this. That's why we're doing this. It's not necessarily just to provide knowledge and introspection, but like to plant the seeds for that to happen. Because that's the only way that we ever truly get to know God is that like direct, embodied connection that we talk about so much. And it's just so fun when other people can bring their stories of experiencing that.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I'm in this kind of cool space as well with that, you know, both between this podcast as well as our devotional community. And I just feel like now every day or every couple days, I'm getting kind of message like, wow, that was a word. I needed to hear that. This was so good for my soul, you know, people going and buying Bibles that have never even like opened one before. And I'm just letting just really, really lift up for how God is moving within, you know, this creative process that we're in. And like, how cool for us to be able to be on this journey and loving God so much and being able to share that with other people that's ultimately helping them or guiding them along also in their own personal relationship with God. It's just so cool. Like every time now I get a message and it's like, you follow me are such a vibe. I love the realness that you guys are creating or like offering on this on this podcast. And I don't know how I feel about this, but they're like, you guys are so different, but it works. And I was like, I think that's a compliment. What do you think about that? How do you feel about it?

SPEAKER_04

I agree, but I want an external perspective to like expla like explain how we're different.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I maybe I should have further probed, but I just was like, oh my gosh, thank you so much. Next time, next time it comes up. Or if you guys listening, you know, or you feel like the difference between the two of us if you've met us, of course.

SPEAKER_04

I agree that we're definitely we're definitely different. We've found that time and time again throughout this experience of becoming partners and doing all of this work together, but it does just work. So when something works so seamlessly, it doesn't feel like there's differences because oftentimes we associate different with meaning like, oh, it won't like click or mesh, or that means that we wouldn't be able to like get along in the way that we do, but it does just like God knew what he was doing. We just it just makes sense.

SPEAKER_06

Totally 100% 100%. I digress. That's awesome. I love I love to hear that. And it's again, it's just continued encouragement for you know what we're doing here.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I think it's it's also for the listeners.

SPEAKER_04

I am always so vulnerable anytime somebody sends me a message like that that I'm like, thank you so much, because that's fuel to keep going. And it's not that we're seeking that, right? It's not seeking a sense of validation from messages, but when we do receive it, it's like this wink from God of you are you're doing what I called you to do. And it is having an impact on the people I am meaning for it to have an impact on. Cause I know something that we were both a little bit nervous about of like, do we know enough? Are we qualified enough to start this podcast? And as many times as you hear, like, God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called. Um, it feels scary to step out and start talking about your experience with God and um your experience inside of Christianity and inside of scripture when there are people who are so much more deeply studied in these things than you and I are, right? Like we just have a passion for this and we have personal experience. But I think there's something really sweet about the reality that we are walking through this in real time and that that's meant to meet the people who are like, I feel God calling, but I don't know about all that, right? Like there is an audience that it's it's meant to meet, and not everybody is going to feel directly called to somebody who does just have like the highest level of knowledge necessarily, right? It's just it shines such a beautiful light on the reality that God gives us all such individual gifts and voices and uses the different places we are at on our walk for purpose always, if we'll allow him. But imagine we were too afraid and we're like, no, we're not from me. Like I'm not qualified to do that, right? And God's like, what? You're not qualified to have a conversation about the lived experience you're having with me every single day. Like, get over yourself.

SPEAKER_06

Right. That part. I was kind of, I mean, honestly, I like I like that you named that because as going into this podcast today and diving into this topic, I was just kind of like, ooh, do I have anything to say about this? Or I don't have Bible verses to back this up and stuff, and got very much in my head about that. But you're right, we're just having a conversation. It's me sharing this is what this topic means to me, this is what it means to you. And of course, looking to the Bible for some guidance and just talking about it in my prayer time, but that's that's enough. God has equipped me with everything I need to have this conversation. And I remind myself that constantly when I, like you said, I get into the space of like, yeah, I'm called to do this, but it feels real scary. And who am I? And when that story gets kind of loud, it's just that reminder of sharing what's on my heart, you know? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And when that fear comes up, it's not the it's not the fear of getting it wrong. For me, at least, I don't want to put words in your mouth. It's not for me the fear of getting it wrong as much as the fear of somebody disagreeing with the way that I am currently experiencing this, right? Somebody else kind of projecting or shaming or judging. And I think that's the reason why God has us in this place because it's so important to have these bigger, more nuanced, like we've named so many times before, sticky conversations because people have questions, right? And like we don't have all of the answers, but we can dissect them in dialogue. And I think it helps people to find that safety in seeking God versus feeling like it has to look like this one way.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, absolutely. And and having the open dialogue about these things, right? I I agree with you. I think sometimes people have questions about stuff, but they can be met with condemnation, they can be met with a judgment, and it's like, okay, I'm just gonna keep quiet about this thing rather than like, hey, I don't understand this, right? I I don't understand this particular topic. That doesn't make sense to me. And us just being able to walk through it and recognize at the end of the day that we're humans, and it's our experience with whatever you know, said issue is.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's making me think how many people there are out there who are just like, what's in the book is what's in the book, right? And like it's not up for interpretation. And I'm like, literally, books are written to be interpreted. Like and balancing out some of that, right? Like, I think that there's so much religious hurt and church hurt of people just being like, this is the way it is, and don't you dare ask a question about it that has turned people away in the past or gives a bad taste. It being that like this is this strict rule of law, and you don't get to question it. And that's not the way that we actually come home to God. Like, God is so welcoming to our questions, right? And it's questioning and finding out for yourself the truth of what something means and how it lands inside of your body so that it can transform your heart that brings us closer to Him, not just like follow these rules and obey or else.

SPEAKER_06

Which is definitely the dialogue that is given, you know, down, depending on where you've been for sure, which leads to a lot of reasons why people reject God, Jesus, the Bible, all the things. Yeah. And I think we're just on a mission to kind of like bridge that gap, you know?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. To recognize that all of that noise doesn't actually have to do with your relationship with Jesus, nor does it have to do with your relationship with the Bible, right? So many people who are walking around with projections about the Bible, I was one of them. I had never actually opened a Bible and experienced it for myself. I was just like, the Bible is just trying to control me and it's man-made and it's this and it's that. And I had never actually opened it to experience it for myself. It was all just coming off of those more dogmatic ways of interacting with religion that I was taught when I was younger. Right. And that's why I'm really excited about this topic today because the uh research into the origin and the words and what it actually meant versus what it has been evolved to mean over time changed everything for me as it came to having a relationship and understanding sin and repentance. These words that they're like, oh, I don't like that is how I used to feel about it. Like, no, nope, there's nothing wrong with me. No, thank you. God thinks I'm perfect. And uh no, I'm not willing to look at that, right? Um, and it's because of the way that it was portrayed to me when I was younger, of it just being like, you are a sinner, and these are the things that you have to stay away from. And if you have any desire or or any of this inside of you, then you're wrong and you're bad and you're disobeying God and you're going to hell, right? And that's not the story I found when I actually started reading the Bible for myself.

SPEAKER_06

So if you didn't catch that, folks, we're leaning into sin today. Let's talk about sin, baby. Ooh, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_05

What a choice song to choose to express the conversation of sin.

SPEAKER_06

I've been waiting and preparing for that. Um, yeah. So let's I'm excited. I'm excited to dive into a topic, what it is, what it isn't, um, you know, the kind of origins of it, the the word origin, where we kind of first see it come into the world, maybe any, you know, thought-provoking, interesting questions that arise that you can ask me, or I can ask you, or we can ask the people. Um yeah, I'm excited to dive in. Where shall we start?

SPEAKER_07

Hmm.

SPEAKER_06

Well, when you think about sin, what do you think of? I guess we can start there.

SPEAKER_07

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Well, what I think about now is way different than what I used to think. I used to think that sin was doing something wrong. I thought it was filled with shame. I thought it was like these laws that God wrote that if you broke, he was taking love away from you. Like it's like these laws that he wrote, but that he also impressed into us the desire to break the laws. And it was like a trap that, like, if I have these desires inside of myself, then and I believe in God and I believe in sin, then I am wrong and bad and shameful, and therefore God doesn't love me, and I'm going to end up in hell. And that's a scary story.

SPEAKER_06

That is, and I I think that story is pretty common though for a lot of people. Because my my story sounds very similar to that. When I think about sin, it's it's me. I I think I've connected sin with like shame and I am bad. Um, which connects then to my worthiness, like I can't show up to God because I am a you know, I have committed sins, and that means I'm dirty and I'm bad. And he doesn't want to have anything, yeah, dirty, and he doesn't want to have anything to do with me. Yeah, and honestly, that's that kept me, that kept me from a relationship with God for a really, really long time. Because I had this, I had this vision that in order to go and be with God, I had to be super cleaned up, my life, all my shit had to be together. Um, certainly could not be, you know, out here, you know, interacting with different men and living this fast life. Like there was no way, there was no room for me. He didn't want to have anything to do with me. And again, I will say that that was also because I was never in here. I was never in this book reading the multitude of stories of the types of people that Jesus spent his time with. Um, the woman, the well, all of these different things. And now when I read, I can deeply, you know, just feel it so deeply in my soul, but for a long time kept me from going to God because I'm like, He doesn't want me. Like, I'm this dirty mess of a human, and I have to be prim and proper and all put together and perfect to even be in his presence.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think that shame piece keeps a lot of people in resistance, right? That if I go to God, I'm gonna have to feel shame about myself because he has to be ashamed of me if I've been breaking all these rules my whole life, right? Um and so I guess from there, before yeah, before we bring in the idea of repentance, what did you find as we were getting ready for this episode about sin inside of the Bible?

SPEAKER_06

Ooh, yes. Well, let me pull up my notes here for you. Um, but the original meaning in the Old Testament for the word sin, I'm going to say it wrong, H-A-T-A, Hate A, long A, um, which really actually meant to miss the mark, and that's in Hebrew. Um, so similarly to, you know, like if you're an archer or you're shooting a bow and arrow or something and missing the mark. So original reference to that word coming up in the old testament, um, and they told me that that was in Judges 20, verse 16, actually. Um, which gives to the idea that it's really saying that we've fallen short of what God has intended for us. It's not that they were evil or bad or anything like that, but we are missing the mark.

SPEAKER_07

Yep. When I learned that, that that original word meant to miss the mark. I was like, wait a second.

SPEAKER_04

And it made me realize how much of my spiritual journey was actually moving through the layers of things, the stories, the shame, the fear that I had contracted inside of my system that were keeping me in separation from a direct relationship with God. Right. And when we have those stories about ourselves, you're a wretched sinner, you're shameful, and we hold on to that inside of our systems, it is going to perpetuate that separation, right? Because what I found through my personal relationship with God is that our sin, the actions that we take out of being in separation from God, right, are what keep us in that separation, but we're taking them out of an attempt to satiate that wound of separation. We're taking those actions, we're doing those sinful things, those actions that keep us in separation because we're seeking God. Unconsciously, we don't know that if we're not on a direct path, right, for seeking God. But I believe that all of humanity is seeking the love and the wholeness and the union of God. And that these unconscious patterns and stories and beliefs that we have about ourselves cause us to act out of sin, to take actions that miss the mark of God. But we're we're unconsciously aiming, right? We're trying to find him, but we're taking these actions because of that pain, because of that separation, because we don't know him.

SPEAKER_07

I'm just taking a moment to let that land. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So the the word for sin, even as we continue into the New Testament, right? Because the Old Testament was traditionally in Hebrew. New Testament moved to Greek, if I'm not mistaken. Um, the Greek word in the New Testament for sin was uh hamartia, hamartia, also meaning to miss the mark. So even throughout this entire Bible, New Testament, Old Testament, same concept, missing the mark. And so it had me diving into, you know, where did this all begin, right? When was the first act of sin, sin created or happening within the word? And the and that was the story of Adam and Eve, and that starting from a place of lacking in trust of God. And that just hit me in my feels when I was reading and thinking in on that. I was like, man, that's so true. Because trying to tie it back to modern times and me now, and thinking about how often I find myself in this space of not completely trusting that I'm provided for, that I am enough, that I can surrender, right? All of those things that are creating separation between me and my relationship with God are stemming from a lack of trust. So I think that, at least from reading in the Bible, right? That's the story we hear in Genesis, where the serpent comes in and is is prompting and putting doubt in their minds. Like, are you sure that God doesn't want you to eat from that tree? You know, are you sure about that? Why would he not want, you know, and creating that sense in your system of like, really? Maybe not. I don't know. Yeah. Insert that lack of trust. And so that being kind of where all of that began.

SPEAKER_04

And how different is that of a story around sin of like you're just missing the mark because you don't know God, because you're not full of God, because you haven't gotten there yet, versus you are disobeying God and he is angry and he is wrathful, and he is going to send you into the pits of hell. How different of an experience is that. And it makes me think of the way that Jesus dealt with sinners. Right? He just got eye to eye with them. He sat with them. He taught them about God, filled them with God, and never condemned or shamed them for not knowing what they didn't know before they learned it. Right? So it's so interesting. That literally in the Bible it says that there is no condemnation, uh, condemnation in Christ. And yet we have so much condemnation inside of religion that is causing people to turn away from Christ. Right? There's so much finger pointing. I saw this. Of course, every time we decide on a topic, everything in life starts like showing up to fill up the conversation. And I saw this, um, it kind of looked like an old newspaper cartoon. It was a meme on the internet. I'm not reading an old newspaper, but it looked like that style.

SPEAKER_07

And it was-like, where did you get a newspaper?

SPEAKER_04

It looked like a newspaper cartoon. And it was two icebergs and a man standing on top of each one. And um, oh, I'm gonna mess this up. The one I remember, it said good works at the top, like the part that you could see above the water, and underneath sin. Like the big part that was under the water was like all the sin. And the other guy, uh, what you could see above the surface was the sin. Like the little piece was he was standing on top of his sin, and underneath that was faith in God. And it's like, which one of these are we actually aiming for? Are we aiming to be honest about the ways that we as humans miss the mark and still live in sin, which is just an expression of the ways that we still feel separate from God, which is just an innate aspect of our humanity, original sin, separation from God, right? Or was the point always to do good works and point fingers and judge and shame, like we see happening in the world as it comes to people coming home to God.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I mean, and I I don't know where it's even names in the Bible, but it does say that for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Like we're, I think we're God already anticipates and knows that we're we're not perfect and we are going to repeatedly miss the mark. And it's like, like you named, I mean, are we gonna continue living in that that shame spiral, right? Of like, I'm struggling with this and I'm gonna tackle it on my own and alone and continue to hide and press down and allow those secrets to to really um you know cause sickness and dis-ase in the system, or are you going to bring them into the light, be honest, as as crunchy and uncomfortable as it is to name these areas where you're falling short.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It really flips the switch on the experience of sin and how we can actually utilize the awareness of our sin to grow closer to God instead of trying to hide it or be ashamed by it or perfect ourselves or act like we never act out of sin, right? Because I just this is a sticky one for me to say, but I don't believe that God is sitting watching each and every one of our actions as we struggle to come home to him with this eye of judgment and taking all of these notes on where you got it right and where you got it wrong and how you failed, right? I just believe that he utilizes those experiences where we are in sin and we do end up feeling ashamed, right? Because there is kind of this inherent nature of feeling shame when you are acting in ways that are in separation from God, right? Because we are missing the mark. We're missing the mark of love. Um and I just I if we could stop teaching it that way, that you have to be pure and perfect, and that if you take these actions and you choose these choices, that it's going to damn you to hell, versus the literal lesson that exists inside of this book that says we live in a fallen world, and it's created this unconscious separation of our souls from knowing God and this journey of life that you're on is to allow you to come home to that and experience that. Like, how much less scary and shameful is that than you have to be perfect?

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_06

It's such a different yeah, it is not connecting like that falling short to I am worth, I am like I'm worthless. I think I made that connection a lot of times. Like I'm constantly falling short. I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy enough to be in relationship with this person. And it's the complete opposite, right? I mean, there's so many stories time and time again in in the Bible, which is just there's just so many beautiful stories in there of God's grace. And I'm I don't know what book it is, it is in. Perhaps you know it, but when he's kind of like they um bring a woman to him that has caught been caught being an adulteress in her marriage or something, and he's making some marks in the sand, and he's like kind of like who is without sin, like, please cast the first stone. And then literally he continues writing and looks up, and all of the people who brought her there are gone, and she's only there, and it's like, so I see no one has condemned you. Like, I don't either like go forth and sin no more. Like, such a beautiful story of like, he already knows, he already knows, and we are to the the invitation is to bring our messiness, to bring all of that to him and allow him to infiltrate our heart, right, and our soul, allow ourselves to be filled with the Holy Spirit so that there becomes those moments where maybe something you've been navigating didn't cause you to feel any kind of way. I know that when I was living my life a certain kind of way, I didn't have those moments of regret or like I shouldn't do that. And as I've continued to grow in a relationship with God, now I'll notice certain things that I'm like, oof, that feels really uncomfortable to me. And I know in those moments that's because the Holy Spirit is working in me. Um and it's kind of cool to see that how that unfolds, about how like things before had no impact on me. And now even like I'll hear even certain songs now that I used to just be up in the club, like pumping it out to and dropping my booty to, and now I'll hear it and I'm like, shh, ooh. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05

I am obsessed with those reels where it's like you become a Christian and then you hear secular music and it's just like drugs, sex, death, drugs, and sex, and death, and you're like, I can't unhear it now. I can't unhear it now.

SPEAKER_06

But I'm just like, I guess naming that to just you know, remind that that invitation of bringing all of you to God, and can you have the trust that it's all okay? Like, he's not to judge you, he's here to help you like realign and live in the way that he's calling you to live.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And so that brings us to repentance, yeah, which was another really scary topic for me as I started coming home to Christ. But I'm like, what do you mean? I have to apologize.

SPEAKER_05

I have to apologize for all these.

SPEAKER_04

I have to figure out all these things that I've done wrong and I have to apologize for them. Um, and my experience with repentance when I was growing up, it was called the act of confession was going into Catholic church, and I don't even know, I don't remember what it's called. The little booth you go in and you speak to the priest through a screen and you say all of the things that you've done wrong. And as a kid, I remember standing online waiting to go in there and trying to rack my brain for like, I don't think I did anything wrong. I would, I like you had to find these things that you thought that you did that were bad. I have to, I have to apologize because I've been bad. And I remember at times even like making things up that I'm like, I'm just gonna say I cursed at my brother because I don't know what I did that's so bad. And the imprint that that created in my psyche about what it means to be in confession or repentance with with God. And it's never that I always had beautiful experiences when I was moving through Catholicism with priests, right? Like they didn't condemn or shame. There was always this very loving, like, okay, go and say you're five Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers. I'm probably messing that up, what it actually is, and you are forgiven, right? And so it's like they are speaking from the Bible that like you confessed and now you are forgiven. There's no condemnation, like just be forgiven for what you did. But there not being this deeper explanation of the reality of what repentance actually is and the transformation that that creates inside of us spiritually. It was just like make sure you say sorry for the bad things that you did.

SPEAKER_06

Right. Interesting. Yeah, so the I looked up the meaning, the original Hebrew word in the Old Testament used for repentance was I'm gonna say this wrong, shove, s-h-u-v is how you spell it, the Hebrew word, um, translating to to return, return back, which I love, right? Because I think when you know you hear repentance, you're immediately thinking same thing, like I'm apologizing. It has this like very negative connotation to it. So when we look back and we actually take apart the literature and like what the old original text said, I mean, that feels way nicer to me, right? I'm just returning, returning back from where I was to like get back again in alignment with what God has in store for our life.

SPEAKER_04

Feels way different. Way different.

SPEAKER_03

A huge part of our mission is not just meeting online, but connecting with our community through in-person experiences. This is why we are so passionate about hosting women's faith-based retreats all over the world.

SPEAKER_04

Our next one is coming up this spring, March 23rd to the 29th in Uvita, Costa Rica. We'd love to invite you to join us for a week of chef-curated meals, faith-filled workshops, nervous system healing, and playful adventures, all while being held in an incredible villa overlooking the ocean. We only have a few spots left. So if you're interested, click the link in the show notes, check out all the details, try not to drool over the villa we've chosen, and then book a call to secure your spot today. And if you follow the through line from what we were just talking about with sin, right? These actions that you're taking out of the pain of being in separation from God, mostly unconsciously. We'll get to once you consciously know what sins are. Repentance to return. Right? The process of repentance is to return to God beyond that separation that causes you to sin.

SPEAKER_06

And I just pray that it feels so much easier.

SPEAKER_04

And doesn't it feel so much more magical? Like, oh, of course, God created this incredible system for us to return. For us to be able to return. Because as human beings, we live in a fallen world. We are born into sin separation, right? Sin separation, not sin being a wretched, horrible being, which is what for so long. This is gonna be a sidebar. We're going on a little side quest. For so long, something that took me away from feeling called to Christ is I cannot look at a brand new beautiful baby and be like, wretched sinner.

SPEAKER_06

I literally was about to say that. Literally, like I was gonna say, I cannot get um on board with this. You are born a sinner. Like, in no world am I looking at a baby like that's a real unworthy one. Like, I I really struggle with that. That's why I'm glad you named it. Like, I can't From this perspective. Right.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you're born a sinner. You're born into separation. You're born into separation from God. And this human journey allows us to receive the glory of God into our hearts to know Him as a physical experience. That's another thing that I firmly believe. I don't know if there's scripture that backs this up, but I I just feel like this entire human journey gives us the potential to have this experience with God. It gives us the potential to have this relationship with the glory and the greatness and the goodness of God, because when we go back to heaven, we're going back to God. We're going back to oneness. So we're not experiencing ourselves as separate from. The separation is what makes room for us to have this miraculous experience that we're having with Him, right? And now from that angle, it's not this wretched, horrible, dark thing. Yes, wretched darkness has evolved through humanity because of separation, because of that wound, because of trauma that has evolved over time. And we're not going to get into it on this episode. There are forces of darkness and all of that, right? But a beauty inside of the design is the ability to have this experience that you and I are speaking to, where we're in direct union with God, where we're in that direct relationship that now that's the thing that's guiding our life instead of the sin and the fear and the shame.

SPEAKER_06

That's the gift that Jesus gave us. Yeah, and changing that. Um, what's been so monumental for me in this walk is shifting that narrative around repentance and it being less about you know, hating, hating on myself or getting myself wrapped up in like a shame spiral, which historically has been my ML. Right. And now it's it's way less about I'm not gonna say it never happens anymore because I do still but like my heart posture is so different when I when I when I enter into something that feels sinful to me and and the way my heart responds to it, I know he's still doing the work in me. But it it's more about just that coming back, turning back to God. Less about me.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, right, and teaching it in this way, it it takes that pressure off of us. Because another thing that I I do agree with is that our flesh is inherently sinful, right? Our because our flesh is of this world, it's it's going to have those innate desires to chase the things that we think we need to feel fulfilled that actually keep us spinning on that hamster wheel and separation from God, right? I believe that through our walk and our devotion to Him, we can we can heal the flesh in a certain way. But I do, at least where I'm at this this far, it's like I still have fleshly desires. I still have the egoic urge to go after what I think is going to be the best way. And a part of my devotional walk with God is utilizing repentance to recognize, like, oh yeah, I'm acting that way because I'm in unbelief right now, or I'm acting that way because I am idols something outside of God right now, right? And now because I've been able to soften the experience of what sin actually means, I can get closer to it and have a relationship with it because it doesn't make me feel this massive amount of shame, that there's inherently something wrong with me and that I'm actually never going to be okay until I get to heaven.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I'm the gospel of Matthew. I I wrote this down earlier. It said um, Matthew 4, verse 17, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And Jesus' message in this wasn't like feel bad and feel shameful. It was really just turn around. Something better is is here for you, and you can literally experience that heaven on earth when you choose to live in this state of alignment with what I'm calling you up to do, and how I'm calling you to show up in this world, and how amazing and beautiful. I just I think about so many of us that walk around in this state of depression and anxiety and overwhelm and isolation, and how much of that could be combated with uh building and turning to this relationship where you are able to fully surrender to bring all of these things that you're struggling with to a gracious God that's like it's okay. I already knew that you were going to do all of these things, and hey, why don't you come this way instead? Why don't you divert your eyes here and find the and find heaven there? And that just like that gave me like that gave me chills just to think about.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and so in the New Testament, the word for sin is metanoia, which correct me if I'm wrong, I think you wrote down the definition, but it's just a changing of your mind, right? Yeah, a changing of your mind, which to me, I mean, I've had so many experiences. Something I want to name inside of this is I also believe that repentance can be a supernatural experience. I've had so many experiences on my walk home to Christ where I do just fall to my knees and I recognize, like, oh my God, the way I was acting was from a place of deep despair, and I'm so sorry. And it just comes over me, right? Of I'm so sorry, God, I'm so sorry, God, I'm so sorry, God. And in that moment, it's always a washing over of like, it's already done. You're, you don't, your, your apology isn't for me, it's for you. Like you're you're the one who's holding the shame. You're the one who's holding that blame, you're the one who's holding that condemnation. I've washed it clean for you. So can you just accept that, right? And it's never been from this place of somebody pointing a finger at me and being like, if you're gonna be a Christian, you have to repent for this, right? It's been a supernatural experience of a changing of my mind by opening up to receive Christ that has allowed me to see the ways in which I acted out of shame and out of pain and out of all of those things that keep us in that separation.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying this conversation and it's making my little light bulbs go off and just being able to reflect on um so many different experiences. Uh what was coming up for me when you say that are is like this idea of how I will put it down and then pick it back up. I know I name that a lot for myself. Obviously, that's a theme for my walk, but um you know, coming to that understanding and really being able to accept that when God says you've been washed clean, like I will wash you white as snow, and it's like it's forgiven, it's done. Um, why we continue to perseverate on it? Why do we continue to perpetually carry around the shame and the guilt about maybe something that we have done when God has said it's a it's it's gone, it's gone. I have I have washed that clean of you. You don't have to carry it around anymore. And it makes me, I'm the question I'm just posing to myself now is why do I do that? Why do I still continue to, you know, hold these these things so tightly, these pains, like like an emotional cutter almost? Like I'm just trying to, you know, repeatedly hurt myself again and again and again. And for what what purpose?

SPEAKER_04

And well, and I think that we we spoke about this a bit on maybe not the last episode, the episode before when we were talking about spiritual warfare and the reality of darkness, and that there are dark forces that are trying to keep us stuck in that separation, right? So, like those are those little voices in your head that are like, you should be ashamed about that thing, or look at that thing that you did over there, right? It's like that those are the ones that are keeping score of all the wrongdoing so that they can use it against you at any moment. Um, and I don't believe that it's by our own strength that we make that stop. It's by through the word, through prayer, through devotion, learning the identity that we truly have in Christ that has nothing to do with that shame, that has nothing to do with that past, that has nothing to do with the ways that we once acted out of unknowing, out of that separation. Um, and yeah, just a thing for anybody who's listening to be aware of, right? Something that's been so helpful for me in my walk has been recognizing the reality of those little voices in my head that are trying to keep me in separation, that are trying to keep me in striving for my own striving's sake, that aren't so quick to allow me to fully accept my identity in Christ. And that's where I think having a devotional practice with the word and the the uh supernatural experience of what happens when you do read it and you ingest this identity and you ingest the possibility and you ingest what God has gifted to us through here, not as these are rules you have to follow so that you're not wrong and bad because I'm gonna judge you and shame you and leave you out of my kingdom, but so that you can actually go through the transformational process required to even experience the kingdom. And how you named earlier in that scripture, you quoted the kingdom of heaven is at hand. It's not the kingdom of heaven is waiting for you at the end of your life, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, the kingdom of heaven. Is within you. And it's through this process of recognizing the truth of sin and allowing ourselves to be in repentance that moves us closer to that experience of the kingdom of heaven, which is union with God, living in full faith that God's got it. God's got it.

SPEAKER_06

Circle, my drop.

SPEAKER_05

I didn't mean to put a shameless plug there, but it just worked really good.

SPEAKER_06

It really, really did. Yeah. I mean, it's so I can't remember. Um it might be somewhere in Romans where it says, like, there is no condemnation for those who follow Jesus Christ, right? Like, I just really want to hammer that home. Like, condemnation, conviction versus condemnation. Condemnation is not from God, right? So, like, that condemnation is what you were talking about, having those identity attacks that we experience where we want to hide from the things that we're doing. It's where people like it feels very crushing. And it's that like mindset of you're the problem, like I'm the problem, and I'm just so bad. Whereas that conviction is where you're feeling that connection to God. It's loving, it's leading you to change. And that is what God is desiring for us. That is what the word says. That is it. Okay. So if you are giving somebody coming at you like, you're not to be doing that, and you're mad, and that's like knowing that that is not God's intention for you. That is not for God.

SPEAKER_04

Right. And I love that you bring that up because I believe that that's one of the places that keep people in so much resistance specifically to Christianity. And I'm speaking from my own experience, is that condemnation. And once I learned, like, oh, there's no condemnation in Christ, like, God's not the one who's condemning. Okay. But all of these people who are claiming to be Christian, who are claiming to be followers of Christ, you're sitting here pointing fingers and judging and shaming and all of that. And I can't fault you now that I see it. I can't fault you. It's an act of your sin. It's an act of your separation. It's an act of your fear or what you've taken on to believe. But it also makes me think all the time about the Pharisees. That's so much of the gospels is about Jesus' contention with the Pharisees, with these godly religious people who were claiming to be the leaders and the ones who people should come to for their faith. And yet they didn't know the heart of Christ. They didn't know the heart of God because their entire hierarchy stood on just following laws so that you weren't bad. Right? And Christ came in to change all of that. And yet we still look around in religion today, and so many people are still acting from that place. And that's to say, because they don't really know God.

SPEAKER_02

Might want to, might be working at it, might be trying. But when you really, truly, truly know God, I'm sorry, but you are not sitting up in somebody's comment section being like, you really shouldn't be expressing yourself that way. You really shouldn't be, you know, you're not supposed to.

SPEAKER_04

No, that's not how God operates. That's not how Jesus operated, right? And we are called as Christians to be like Christ. So when you find yourself, maybe if you're somebody who's listening who feels a little bit legalistic and dogmatic in that way, just know your heart might be in the right place, but you might be trying to help. Might be missing the mark. You might be missing the mark.

SPEAKER_05

So good.

SPEAKER_06

Just saying.

SPEAKER_05

Just saying.

SPEAKER_06

Say it. Um so yeah, I mean, can we just like across the board decide that going into people's like comments and leaving nasty stuff is is not the way. It's not the way.

SPEAKER_04

Not godlike.

SPEAKER_06

Not godlike.

SPEAKER_04

And that is just a representation of anywhere in which you can do that, right? And I'm not saying I've had to admit so often, I literally just made a post about this yesterday about how judgy I was, how much judgment I had. And it was about Christians, right? Like I had the same judgment that I was afraid of them giving to me, right? So this judgment that we carry around, it's something that is inherently inside of all of us because of our sin, because of that separation, because we are working as a whole through whom humanity to allow the love of God in, to allow it to heal those strongholds and those places in our hearts that continuously fight to keep us in separation. But I promise you, when you really actually know the heart of Christ, there is no condemnation. That's not a thought in your mind. It's not a place that you're going. Of course, you want to help and support and guide people in the right direction if you see them blatantly doing things where it's like, hey, like you do realize these actions that you're taking are hurting yourself, right? But how different is that than you shouldn't be doing that because you're gonna go to hell.

SPEAKER_06

I love the voice. I can't, I can't even take you seriously with that voice. Um, no, but I'm that that makes, you know, I'm I'm thinking about some of the things we think about as sinful, right? Like murder, like adultery, things like that. But even the more modern ways that we sin that you probably aren't even thinking like that is sin-like, right? Gossiping about people, um, you know, allowing your pride to kind of get in the way, having you know, idols of things that are not of God, like when we idolize money or social media and things like that, when we're trying to control everything and be, you know, and put on that mask of being super, super independent people. These are all ways that we are missing the mark in what God is asking for us. And I think sometimes that's like even a more subtle way that we're not realizing. And how beautiful that we can reflect that back to our friends. You know, I can think about so many times where you have redirected my path, you know. More most recently, we were having a conversation about someone that I felt that had wronged me. And I was feeling so petty about it and wanting to just like trash talk about it. And immediately, and this is, you know, we can talk about this another time, the importance of having godly friendships and what that means for you. Cause you immediately came back to me with a really beautiful reflection and of realizing in that moment, yeah, like I was missing the mark with what God was asking me to do in in that moment. It was not to gossip, it was not to be petty and let my pride get in the way, but it was to be like bless and release, like good for you, I'm happy for you, and like that is not in my path anymore. So to let it go. And God asks us to do that. And um yeah, I think it's important, and that's a beautiful representation of how you can be showing up and guiding people back to God without the pointing of the finger and like you're no good.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I just pray for there to be more of that that comes to life inside of the faith, right? Because I also fully believe that we are living on the leading edge of God's creation right now, right? Like we are an active participant inside of God's creation. He gave us creative power, he made us like him, right? He gave us free will and the ability to choose. And so I believe what we're going through right now as a total human family is the ability to choose, to seek God, to allow God, to allow Christ to transform our inner being that's been holding us in separation and allow us to walk more in that way. Because of course, over time, that's going to be the thing that leads us to living in a more loving, more whole, more free reality on this planet. And I just believe that that's what God is guiding us to do. He doesn't, he's not just asking us to do what needs to be done so that we can get to the end of our lives and and and come to heaven. Again, going back to the kingdom of heaven is at hand, the kingdom of heaven is within you. Can you imagine if we had an entire earth of human beings who were living in this way, helping each other live in this way? It's a big ask, it's a big feat, but I really think that that's God's goal.

SPEAKER_06

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Wow, what a wonderful world that would be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

And so sin doesn't really just talking and leaning more into the sin. Like sin does not mean that we are necessarily disqualified, right? God knows that we're going to sin. It's just kind of that natural proof that we are in fact human and that repentance. Repentance isn't about shame. It's not about humiliation, it's about returning back home and ultimately getting to restoration, which I think is God's ultimate goal for us. Is to be restored again.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. Thank you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_08

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, this was such a good one. I knew this was going to be powerful, but it's always so beautiful to witness the way that God weaves the conversation. And I think that this is gonna be so powerful for all of you out there who just listened.

SPEAKER_01

Was it powerful? I don't know. Reach out, let us know. Like, let us know what you think, you know? Let us know.

SPEAKER_06

I mean, truly, like, what is it? I would love to know, you know, if you take on this belief hat that we're throwing at you, and it's not about perfection, but it's about getting back on board. It's not about shame, right? Can you have the the repentance without this shame and just kind of that recognizing of that restoration? And how does that land differently in your body or when you think about coming to God when you change and put that belief hat on that he's already prepared and ready, and you just miss the mark, and you get to try again.

SPEAKER_04

Right, it's not perfection, correction.

SPEAKER_06

That's right. For me, it's constant correction, but that's a conversation for another day. No, this was really good.

SPEAKER_04

It was good, good stuff, good stuff. All right, guys, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for continuing to follow on this journey. We are having so much fun in this space, and we hope that you are receiving so much from these conversations. And we really mean it. Like Jen and I really we're not just saying it. Reach out, like send us an email, send us a DM, let us know how these things are landing for you. If you have any questions, if you have any topics you want us to traverse, we're getting into the territory now where we originally had like a list of all these topics, and now we're getting into the territory where we're looking into topics that are going to take some research and diving into the word and really seeing the history of how these things evolved and how they came to be, because there are so many important conversations that need to be had inside of the space of faith. And we want this to be a place where those conversations are welcome and that they are traversed with honor and reverence and devotion and deep research that holds true to what is written here, but also allows us to reflect on the reality that the deepest part of our walk with God is internal, it's personal, it's relational, it's what's happening inside of each of our hearts and minds and bodies as we uh access the kingdom of heaven within. So thanks for being here and we'll uh we'll see you on the next episode.

SPEAKER_06

Don't forget, guys. God's got it.

SPEAKER_04

I almost forgot.

SPEAKER_06

I almost forgot the whole point. But literally, God's got it. Okay, guys, that's a wrap. If today's episode spoke to you, please let us know. Leave us a comment or reach out via email.

SPEAKER_00

If you know someone who would benefit from this message, please take a moment to share it with them and make sure to hit the subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_06

Thanks for spending time with us today. We hope you leave her reminded that whatever season you're in right now, God's got it.